Rand Hindi, Zama Co-Founder | EFL Study Guide (Part 1/3)
"It'll feel just like using Ethereum, right? For developers, it'll feel like just like building for Ethereum."
๐ "์ด๋๋ฆฌ์์ ์ฌ์ฉํ๋ ๊ฒ์ฒ๋ผ ๋๊ปด์ง ๊ฑฐ์์. ๊ฐ๋ฐ์๋ค์๊ฒ๋ ์ด๋๋ฆฌ์์ฉ์ผ๋ก ๊ฐ๋ฐํ๋ ๊ฒ๊ณผ ๋๊ฐ์ด ๋๊ปด์ง ๊ฒ๋๋ค."
"Everything is in Solidity and you're pushing your contract to Ethereum. For users, everything's going to feel like Ethereum. You're using a wallet to make a transaction to Ethereum."
๐ "๋ชจ๋ ๊ฒ์ด ์๋ฆฌ๋ํฐ๋ก ๋์ด ์๊ณ ์ปจํธ๋ํธ๋ฅผ ์ด๋๋ฆฌ์์ ํธ์ํฉ๋๋ค. ์ฌ์ฉ์์๊ฒ๋ ๋ชจ๋ ๊ฒ์ด ์ด๋๋ฆฌ์์ฒ๋ผ ๋๊ปด์ง ๊ฒ๋๋ค. ์ง๊ฐ์ ์ฌ์ฉํด์ ์ด๋๋ฆฌ์์ ํธ๋์ญ์ ์ ๋ง๋๋ ๊ฑฐ์ฃ ."
"And that's really how we thought about this, right? We don't want people to use something else. We want people to use Ethereum confidentially."
๐ "๊ทธ๊ฒ ์ ๋ง ์ฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ ์ด๊ฒ์ ๋ํด ์๊ฐํ ๋ฐฉ์์ด์์. ์ฌ๋๋ค์ด ๋ค๋ฅธ ๊ฒ์ ์ฌ์ฉํ๋ ๊ฑธ ์ํ์ง ์์์. ์ฌ๋๋ค์ด ๊ธฐ๋ฐ์ ์ผ๋ก ์ด๋๋ฆฌ์์ ์ฌ์ฉํ๊ธธ ์ํฉ๋๋ค."
"Rand, I think everyone listening to Bankless knows that crypto has a privacy problem. We want privacy. We don't have it yet."
๐ "Rand, Bankless๋ฅผ ๋ฃ๋ ๋ชจ๋ ์ฌ๋์ด ์ํธํํ์ ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์ ๋ฌธ์ ๊ฐ ์๋ค๋ ๊ฑธ ์๋ค๊ณ ์๊ฐํด์. ์ฐ๋ฆฌ๋ ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์๋ฅผ ์ํฉ๋๋ค. ์์ง ์์ฃ ."
"Here's how you put it in a recent tweet. You said, go to anyone on the street and ask them to show you their bank account. That's blockchain today. It's obvious we need confidentiality."
๐ "์ต๊ทผ ํธ์์์ ์ด๋ ๊ฒ ํํํ์ จ์ฃ . ๊ธธ๊ฑฐ๋ฆฌ์์ ์๋ฌด๋ ๋ถ์ก๊ณ ์ํ ๊ณ์ข๋ฅผ ๋ณด์ฌ๋ฌ๋ผ๊ณ ํ๋ผ๊ณ ์. ๊ทธ๊ฒ ์ค๋๋ ๋ธ๋ก์ฒด์ธ์ ๋๋ค. ๊ธฐ๋ฐ์ฑ์ด ํ์ํ๋ค๋ ๊ฑด ๋ช ๋ฐฑํฉ๋๋ค."
"Well, I think if you look at the history of blockchain, maybe the first thing we have to understand is why is data public in the first place?"
๐ "๋ธ๋ก์ฒด์ธ์ ์ญ์ฌ๋ฅผ ๋ณด๋ฉด, ์๋ง ์ฐ๋ฆฌ๊ฐ ๋จผ์ ์ดํดํด์ผ ํ ๊ฒ์ ์ ์ฒ์๋ถํฐ ๋ฐ์ดํฐ๊ฐ ๊ณต๊ฐ๋์ด ์๋๋๋ ๊ฒ์ ๋๋ค."
"The reason why data is public on a public blockchain is because you want public verifiability. If you want anybody to be able to recompute the states, they need to be able to use and see the data that was part of computing that state."
๐ "ํผ๋ธ๋ฆญ ๋ธ๋ก์ฒด์ธ์์ ๋ฐ์ดํฐ๊ฐ ๊ณต๊ฐ๋๋ ์ด์ ๋ ๊ณต๊ฐ ๊ฒ์ฆ๊ฐ๋ฅ์ฑ์ ์ํ๊ธฐ ๋๋ฌธ์ ๋๋ค. ๋๊ตฌ๋ ์ํ๋ฅผ ์ฌ๊ณ์ฐํ ์ ์๊ฒ ํ๋ ค๋ฉด, ๊ทธ ์ํ๋ฅผ ๊ณ์ฐํ๋ ๋ฐ ์ฌ์ฉ๋ ๋ฐ์ดํฐ๋ฅผ ๋ณด๊ณ ์ฌ์ฉํ ์ ์์ด์ผ ํฉ๋๋ค."
"And so there was really no other way if you wanted decentralization and public verifiability, but to make the data public."
๐ "๊ทธ๋์ ํ์ค์ํ์ ๊ณต๊ฐ ๊ฒ์ฆ๊ฐ๋ฅ์ฑ์ ์ํ๋ค๋ฉด, ๋ฐ์ดํฐ๋ฅผ ๊ณต๊ฐํ๋ ๊ฒ ์ธ์๋ ์ ๋ง ๋ค๋ฅธ ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ์ด ์์์ต๋๋ค."
"This was never a feature of blockchain, right? It was kind of like an artifact of not having homomorphic encryption in these techniques 15 years ago."
๐ "์ด๊ฑด ๋ธ๋ก์ฒด์ธ์ ๊ธฐ๋ฅ์ด ์๋์์ด์. 15๋ ์ ์ ์ด๋ฐ ๊ธฐ์ ์ ๋ํ์ํธ๊ฐ ์์๋ ๊ฒ์ ๋ถ์ฐ๋ฌผ ๊ฐ์ ๊ฑฐ์์ฃ ."
"But what you really want is public verifiability. And I think there are many, many attempts to doing that."
๐ "ํ์ง๋ง ์ ๋ง ์ํ๋ ๊ฑด ๊ณต๊ฐ ๊ฒ์ฆ๊ฐ๋ฅ์ฑ์ ๋๋ค. ๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ ๊ทธ๊ฒ์ ํ๋ ค๋ ๋ง์ ์๋๊ฐ ์๋ค๊ณ ์๊ฐํฉ๋๋ค."
"So Zcash used zero-knowledge proofs as a way to effectively prove that you had the tokens that you wanted to transfer, right? And so in this case, what you would publicly verify was the proof. You didn't need the data."
๐ "Zcash๋ ์์ง์ ์ฆ๋ช ์ ์ฌ์ฉํด์ ์ ์กํ๋ ค๋ ํ ํฐ์ด ์๋ค๋ ๊ฒ์ ํจ๊ณผ์ ์ผ๋ก ์ฆ๋ช ํ์ฃ . ์ด ๊ฒฝ์ฐ, ๊ณต๊ฐ์ ์ผ๋ก ๊ฒ์ฆํ๋ ๊ฒ์ ์ฆ๋ช ์ด์์ด์. ๋ฐ์ดํฐ๊ฐ ํ์ ์์์ฃ ."
"But the problem is that you didn't have composability on this proof. So you were stuck with basically just doing confidential transfers."
๐ "ํ์ง๋ง ๋ฌธ์ ๋ ์ด ์ฆ๋ช ์ ๋ํ ์กฐํฉ์ฑ์ด ์์๋ค๋ ๊ฒ๋๋ค. ๊ทธ๋์ ๊ธฐ๋ณธ์ ์ผ๋ก ๊ธฐ๋ฐ ์ ์ก๋ง ํ๋ ๋ฐ ๊ฐํ ์์์ฃ ."
"And I think this is why a lot of other people started looking at other techniques like FHE, like multi-party computation, like TEEs, to try and create this shared private state that you could build DeFi on."
๐ "๊ทธ๋์ ๋ง์ ๋ค๋ฅธ ์ฌ๋๋ค์ด FHE, ๋ค์๊ฐ ๊ณ์ฐ, TEE ๊ฐ์ ๋ค๋ฅธ ๊ธฐ์ ์ ์ดํด๋ณด๊ธฐ ์์ํ ์ด์ ๋ผ๊ณ ์๊ฐํด์. DeFi๋ฅผ ๊ตฌ์ถํ ์ ์๋ ๊ณต์ ๋ ํ๋ผ์ด๋น ์ํ๋ฅผ ๋ง๋ค๋ ค๊ณ ์."
"For the non-cryptographers, Rand just mentioned TEEs and multi-party computation, all of that. Don't worry, we will define those things."
๐ "์ํธํ์๊ฐ ์๋ ๋ถ๋ค์ ์ํด, Rand๊ฐ ๋ฐฉ๊ธ TEE์ ๋ค์๊ฐ ๊ณ์ฐ ๋ฑ์ ์ธ๊ธํ๋๋ฐ์. ๊ฑฑ์ ๋ง์ธ์, ๋์ค์ ์ ์ํ ๊ฒ๋๋ค."
"So I think you're saying, Rand, that the reason we had public blockchains in the first place and they were constructed as such is because we were tech limited. We didn't have the cryptography at the time."
๐ "Rand, ์ฒ์์ ํผ๋ธ๋ฆญ ๋ธ๋ก์ฒด์ธ์ด ๊ทธ๋ ๊ฒ ๊ตฌ์ถ๋ ์ด์ ๊ฐ ๊ธฐ์ ์ ์ผ๋ก ์ ํ๋์ด ์์๊ธฐ ๋๋ฌธ์ด๋ผ๋ ๋ง์์ธ ๊ฒ ๊ฐ์์. ๋น์์๋ ์ํธํ์ด ์์์ฃ ."
"I mean, there are a couple of other explanations I can think of. Certainly, Tech Limited is one of them. There's also maybe demand. Maybe there's just not demand for privacy and confidentiality."
๐ "์ ๊ฐ ์๊ฐํ ์ ์๋ ๋ช ๊ฐ์ง ๋ค๋ฅธ ์ค๋ช ์ด ์์ด์. ํ์คํ ๊ธฐ์ ์ ํ์ด ๊ทธ ์ค ํ๋์ฃ . ์์ ๋ฌธ์ ๋ ์์ ์ ์์ด์. ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์์ ๊ธฐ๋ฐ์ฑ์ ๋ํ ์์๊ฐ ์์ ์๋ ์์ฃ ."
"A third possibility is the regulators wouldn't let us. This is kind of a historical counterfactual I've often thought of, which is the basic idea that if Bitcoin launched in a private way, governments would have strangled it in the crib."
๐ "์ธ ๋ฒ์งธ ๊ฐ๋ฅ์ฑ์ ๊ท์ ๋น๊ตญ์ด ํ๋ฝํ์ง ์์๋ค๋ ๊ฑฐ์์. ์ด๊ฑด ์ ๊ฐ ์์ฃผ ์๊ฐํ ์ญ์ฌ์ ๋ฐ์ฌ์ค์ธ๋ฐ, ๋นํธ์ฝ์ธ์ด ํ๋ผ์ด๋นํ๊ฒ ์ถ์๋๋ค๋ฉด ์ ๋ถ๊ฐ ์๋์์ ๋ชฉ์ ์กธ๋์ ๊ฑฐ๋ผ๋ ๊ฑฐ์ฃ ."
"You know, I think that's a very interesting question. I've been in privacy for a very long time, actually. You know, my previous company was already working on privacy for AI."
๐ "์์ฃผ ํฅ๋ฏธ๋ก์ด ์ง๋ฌธ์ด๋ค์. ์ ๋ ์ฌ์ค ์ค๋ซ๋์ ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์ ๋ถ์ผ์ ์์์ด์. ์ด์ ํ์ฌ์์ ์ด๋ฏธ AI ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์๋ฅผ ์ฐ๊ตฌํ๊ฑฐ๋ ์."
"And nobody really cares about privacy because most of your life isn't publicly visible to other people. When you go to your house and close the door, nobody sees what you're doing inside."
๐ "์ฌ์ค ์๋ฌด๋ ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์๋ฅผ ์ ๊ฒฝ ์ฐ์ง ์์์. ์ถ์ ๋๋ถ๋ถ์ด ๋ค๋ฅธ ์ฌ๋๋ค์๊ฒ ๊ณต๊ฐ์ ์ผ๋ก ๋ณด์ด์ง ์์ผ๋๊น์. ์ง์ ๊ฐ์ ๋ฌธ์ ๋ซ์ผ๋ฉด ์์์ ๋ญ ํ๋์ง ์๋ฌด๋ ๋ชป ๋ด์."
"I think it's not that people didn't want it in blockchain. It's that they didn't really have much of an option."
๐ "๋ธ๋ก์ฒด์ธ์์ ์ฌ๋๋ค์ด ์ํ์ง ์์๋ ๊ฒ ์๋๋ผ๊ณ ์๊ฐํด์. ์ ํ์ ์ฌ์ง๊ฐ ๋ณ๋ก ์์๋ ๊ฑฐ์ฃ ."
"And for a long time, you know, we were told that having anonymous addresses was enough. Clearly, this is no longer true. You go on a website like Arkham, you type your name, you'll see everything that people can find about you on chain."
๐ "์ค๋ซ๋์ ์ต๋ช ์ฃผ์๋ฅผ ๊ฐ๋ ๊ฒ๋ง์ผ๋ก ์ถฉ๋ถํ๋ค๊ณ ๋ค์์ด์. ๋ถ๋ช ํ ์ด๊ฑด ๋ ์ด์ ์ฌ์ค์ด ์๋์์. Arkham ๊ฐ์ ์น์ฌ์ดํธ์ ๊ฐ์ ์ด๋ฆ์ ์น๋ฉด ์จ์ฒด์ธ์์ ๋น์ ์ ๋ํด ์ฐพ์ ์ ์๋ ๋ชจ๋ ๊ฒ์ ๋ณผ ์ ์์ด์."
"Like, that's really scary, man. Like, you know, I mean, I come from France, a country where we had 10 crypto kidnappings."
๐ "์ ๋ง ๋ฌด์ญ์ฃ . ์ ๋ ์ํธํํ ๋ฉ์น๊ฐ 10๊ฑด์ด๋ ์์๋ ๋๋ผ์ธ ํ๋์ค์์ ์์ด์."
"I think we're getting now to an inflection point where privacy is no longer something that people can afford not to have on blockchains because the amount and volume of assets are such that we need to start taking this seriously."
๐ "์ง๊ธ ๋ณ๊ณก์ ์ ๋๋ฌํ๊ณ ์๋ค๊ณ ์๊ฐํด์. ์์ฐ์ ์๊ณผ ๊ท๋ชจ๊ฐ ๋๋ฌด ์ปค์ ธ์ ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์๊ฐ ์์ด๋ ๋๋ ๊ฒ ์๋๋ผ ์ง์งํ๊ฒ ๋ฐ์๋ค์ฌ์ผ ํ ๋๊ฐ ๋์ด์."
"And of course, you know, finance moving on chain, like there's just no way, there's just no way that a bank is going to use stable coins for bank accounts if your neighbor can see your bank account."
๐ "๋ฌผ๋ก ๊ธ์ต์ด ์จ์ฒด์ธ์ผ๋ก ์ฎ๊ฒจ๊ฐ๋๋ฐ, ์ด์์ด ๋น์ ์ ์ํ ๊ณ์ข๋ฅผ ๋ณผ ์ ์๋ค๋ฉด ์ํ์ด ์คํ ์ด๋ธ์ฝ์ธ์ ์ํ ๊ณ์ข์ ์ฌ์ฉํ ๋ฐฉ๋ฒ์ด ์ ํ ์์ด์."
"I think a good example to illustrate how quickly the mentality can shift around that. If you remember, before Telegram, before Signal, we didn't have any encryption in messages."
๐ "๊ทธ ์ฃผ๋ณ์ ์ฌ๊ณ ๋ฐฉ์์ด ์ผ๋ง๋ ๋นจ๋ฆฌ ๋ณํ ์ ์๋์ง ๋ณด์ฌ์ฃผ๋ ์ข์ ์๊ฐ ์์ด์. ๊ธฐ์ตํ์ ๋ค๋ฉด, ํ ๋ ๊ทธ๋จ ์ด์ , ์๊ทธ๋ ์ด์ ์๋ ๋ฉ์์ง์ ์ํธํ๊ฐ ์ ํ ์์์ด์."
"And then Telegram came about around about the time of Snowden made the revelations in 2013."
๐ "๊ทธ๋ฆฌ๊ณ 2013๋ ์ค๋ ธ๋ ์ด ํญ๋กํ์ ๋์ฏค ํ ๋ ๊ทธ๋จ์ด ๋์์ด์."
"And now it would be unthinkable to use a messaging app that isn't encrypted."
๐ "์ด์ ์ํธํ๋์ง ์์ ๋ฉ์์ง ์ฑ์ ์ฌ์ฉํ๋ ๊ฒ์ ์์ํ ์ ์๊ฒ ๋์ด์."
"But nobody asked for it. SMS text messages have existed since the 80s. Nobody was asking for privacy until people realized, oh, I can have the exact same service, but private. Why would I not do that?"
๐ "ํ์ง๋ง ์๋ฌด๋ ์์ฒญํ์ง ์์์ด์. SMS ๋ฌธ์ ๋ฉ์์ง๋ 80๋ ๋๋ถํฐ ์์์ฃ . ์ฌ๋๋ค์ด '๋๊ฐ์ ์๋น์ค์ธ๋ฐ ํ๋ผ์ด๋นํ๊ฒ ํ ์ ์๋ค. ์ ์ ํ๊ฒ ์ด?'๋ผ๊ณ ๊นจ๋ซ๊ธฐ ์ ๊น์ง ์๋ฌด๋ ํ๋ผ์ด๋ฒ์๋ฅผ ์์ฒญํ์ง ์์์ด์."
๐ End of Part 1/3 - Continues with Privacy vs Confidentiality discussion...